Return/Refund on a BAHA?

[rust1975]

Just curious if anyone's pursued or been successful at returning a BAHA device. I've had my BP100 since September and it's still not usable. A few months ago, I even had it sent to Colorado for testing and they confirmed a defective transducer, programmed it and sent it back my way. Still no luck working right for me. It's not a question of being powerful enough for me, the volume is fine - the tones and frequencies are not. I've been to two different audiologists in two different states and they claim they've done all they can.

My abutment is fine, I've pressed my normal bone conduction aid to it and heard just fine, even placed my bone conduction aid against my BAHA (turned off) when that's anchored to the abutment and hear fine too.... The BP100 itself is just not working out.

Any luck getting your money back from Cocklear anyone? Or advice on how to go about doing it?

Much appreciated! (And frustrated...)

--Russ

[grega]

Hi Russ,

At a Baha meeting Monday night, Cochlear rep said the Baha comes with a 2-yr warranty for replacement under certain circumstances.  There is also a shorter time (as I recall) for other more drastic happenstances .... e.g. dropping it in a toilet, a car running over it .... yes these were mentioned.  So check with Cochlear for more details.
Greg

[leapyrtwins]

Russ -

I've never wanted to return my BAHA device - or get a refund - and I'm sorry to hear you aren't satisfied with yours.

I know that there have been some issues with the BP100 and that some people actually had to send theirs back to Cochlear for a replacement. 

I have a contact name for a manager @ Cochlear that I met at the ANA Symposium in Chicago this past August.  I don't know if she's the right person to help you, but I'll PM you her contact information.  If she's not the person @ Cochlear that you need to talk to, I'm sure she can point you in the right direction.

In all my dealings with Cochlear I've found them to be an excellent company and they take customer service issues very seriously.

Jan

[mellowrama]

Sorry to hear its not working for you Russ- I'm still testing mine out and not sure it's doing much for me either...does the sound just not come through?
I'm anxious to learn what you find out - for me, the issue is the post in my head also ...will they take it out for you?
melinda

[rust1975]

Hi,

I have no interest in taking out the post. I still believe the technology is solid, if fact, I'm receiving an Oticon Ponto Pro this week to try it out for 90 days (after much discussion with them about my situation being so remote out here in Hawaii). All signs point to that device being superior to the BP100. Another plan is to simply keep the BP100 and wait for audiologists to catch up with the programming knowledge side of the equation... Who knows. All in all, it's been a very frustrating 6 months with little progress.

[leapyrtwins]

I'm receiving an Oticon Ponto Pro this week to try it out for 90 days (after much discussion with them about my situation being so remote out here in Hawaii). All signs point to that device being superior to the BP100.

   Russ, care to elaborate on this?

I demo'd both the Ponto Pro and the BP100 back in November and decided to go with the BP100.  I found the sound quality between the two devices to be identical - both in and out of a sound booth.  I currently wear a Divino and have had absolutely no issues with it, which is why I decided to stick with a Cochlear product.

Melinda -

if for some reason you decided you didn't want the BAHA anymore, they wouldn't remove the post.  While the top of the abutment could be removed with a screw driver, the post would remain imbedded into your skull.  Eventually your skin would grow over the area where the abutment was.  I don't know why you'd want to do this, though - especially in light of the cost of the procedure and the device.

Jan

[rust1975]

Sure, I'll elaborate: I've been talking to Oticon since September about demoing their product. But because I live in Hawaii, where they have not had a vendor established yet, I haven't been able to try one yet. I've gone as far as traveling to Texas to have work done on my BP100, but sure enough the audiologist there hasn't had much experience with programming it (from September to just a few weeks ago during a third trip). While I was there, I tracked down through Oticon a vendor to get me started on the Ponto. Everything was set up for me to visit them (they had spoken with Oticon before my visit to fit me in as a special case because of my one week time constraint.) Well, after a few phone calls they never took me in and I flew back here to Hawaii emptyhanded. A waste of a week traveling, and a waste of money. So Oticon, knowing I've been pursuing this for about half a year now finally just decided to send me a unit and an invoice for a discounted price to make up for my trouble with a 90-day return clause to it. I'll have to find someone to program it, which they assured me an audiologist familar with Oticon can do out here. They've already referred me to someone. So in a few days I'll have it.

Now why am I so adament about the Ponto? Well, for one, the BP100 isn't usable in this condition. And no audiologist seems capable of devoting the time to make it work for me. Seriously, beyond initial programming to my audiogram no one has even tried to go into and tweak the high, mid, and low frequency gain capabilities of it... But yet, I still pay for every office visit regardless of leaving better than when I came in. So frankly, I'm fed up with it. And I've worn Oticon bone conduction hearing aids my entire life with NO issues whatsoever. I actually do have pretty good hearing, but it's purely conductive. So in addition to freeing myself from the headband aid, a clearer signal path that a bone-anchored device would provide is always nice.

As far as what I've read about the Ponto, it comes from various posts here, at the Yahoo BAHA_PLL group and at the Baha Users Support Forum. Specifically, I prefer the use of a rolling wheel volume control the Ponto offers as well. I use one now and it's perfect for being flexible on the fly. The BP100's tiny, hard rubber buttons are too impractical for heavy use having to press against the abutment to adjust programs or volume, in my opinion. I speak from experience, as I've worn aids my entire life.

Really, I'm not trying to be negative here. But this BP100 has cost me a lot more than just time and money. I've had to put career plans on hold and now look to paying out of pocket just to buy a hearing aid that might work since I've already used my insurance benefit to buy the BP100.

[Denise S]

Russ, maybe I'm not reading it all correctly because I'm not yet a user of hearing devices (although researching my options due to SSD).    BUT it sounds like your luck with a good skilled, knowledgable audiologist of the BAHA stuff might be a lot of your problem??    If so, that would be a big bummer!

Hopefully all works well with the new product.   Please keep us informed while you are trying it out :-)  (like I said, I'm researching my options and that Oticon sounds pretty new).

   Denise

[leapyrtwins]

Russ -

thanks for the response. 

I didn't think you were being negative, I was just curious about your choice.

I totally understand about the buttons on the BP100, but the volume button on my Divino is very small and I can "navigate" it just fine.  So in my case, I didn't think it was an issue.

The biggest question I have for you though is regarding the programming of the device.  From what I got out of your first post on this thread, you aren't happy with the programming of your BP100 - or the ability of your audiologist to resolve your programming issues.  What makes you feel that this problem will be solved with the Ponto Pro?  It will certainly need programming - it has 10 channels (the BP100 has 12).

Just playing devil's advocate here, I have to say that most audiologists are more familiar with the Cochlear BAHA system and their devices, which I think would give you an advantage when it comes to programming.  As opposed to the Ponto Pro which isn't being widely used by BAHA patients yet. 

My doc's office offers both devices these days and from what I understand from talking to him and his audiologists no one has chosen a Ponto Pro yet - they've all gone with the BP100.

This is NOT to say that the Ponto Pro isn't a good device.  I just wonder how much support you'll get if you have programming issues with it.

Jan

[rust1975]

You're absolutely correct about the BP100 programming issues and finding a capable audiologist. My situation is that I currently live in Hawaii - where there is only one audi out here who works with BAHA systems. And she's decided she can do all she can and told me I'm just going to have to live iwth it. Well, I refuse to since I hear better with my bone conduction aid on a headband. Long term, that is not good enough for me maintainence-wise. This is the fundamental reason why I'm interested in the Ponto for myself: I get to try before I buy essentially. Remember, it only has to be programmed correctly ONCE. I've never had to see audiologists my entire life as much as I have this year due to the BP100. When it works, it works I say.

Honestly, I wouldn't say audiologists are more familiar with the Cochlear BAHA system (we're talking BP100 here) than the Ponto. Here's why: Oticon is one of the largest hearing aid manufacturers out there, especially in the bone conduction aid market which is essentially a BAHA on a headband. The software audiologists are familiar with mostly is the Oticon-based Genie Medical fitting program which they use routinely to service their entire line of digital bone- and air-conduction aids. The BP100 software is completely new to all audiologists, developed specifically for the BP100. That is why everyone needs training on this and they are having trouble with programming issues, mechanical issues aside (feedback manager, etc). So really the advantage lies with Oticon in this regard.

I think the general perception of new BAHA patients is strictly a name battle. When you think of Cochlear, you think of Cochlear implants which have been around a long time, as has their bone-anchored aids. Not to mention, Cochlear rushed out the BP100 when they got wind of Oticon's plans to introduce a digital BAHA to their market. So they essentially beat them to the punch - issues included.

Also, I just like the sleeker lines of the Ponto.

[leapyrtwins]

Thanks for the input on Oticon.

I know they are a big name in conventional hearing aids, but the Ponto Pro is their first entry into the BAHA system market, and I for one am leery of that.  Maybe I'm naive, but I've had a Cochlear Divino for 2 years now with no problems whatsoever and that means a lot to me.  Cochlear is a huge name - so was Entific before them - and right, wrong, or otherwise they are the company for me.  I'm not "dissing" your choice, just explaining mine 

You are correct, Cochlear had no plans to upgrade their Divino until Oticon decided to debut the Ponto Pro.  Competition is great for us consumers    The BP100 may very well have been a "rush job", but Cochlear has made good on every single one of them they've produced.  Those who haven't been satisfied with their BP100 have gotten new ones - some had to get 2 or 3 new ones; in the end they took care of their customers. 

Being a current Divino user, I didn't really like the shape of the Ponto Pro.  I guess I'm an old dog, but I'm used to a rectangle device so I'm more comfortable with a rectangle device.

I hope the Ponto Pro is the solution to your BAHA problem.  You're the first person I know (well, kind of know  ) who has chosen one.  Going forward, I'd love to hear your feedback on the actual use of the Ponto Pro.  It will be helpful for those trying to decide which device is best for them.  Please keep us updated.

Thanks,

Jan

[Pooter]

Just a couple of notes on this thread, which I've enjoyed watching it play out..

1)  Russ, you seem to suggest that the only reason why Cochlear put out the BP100 was because Oticon was going to put out a digital BAHA..  Which implies that "digital BAHA" wasn't available until the BP100 / Ponto Pro came out..  As I understand it, the Intenso model has been out several years at least and it's a digital BAHA unit.  So, to suggest that Oticon wanted to have the first digital BAHA on the market but was beat out by Cochlear by putting out the BP100 just simply flies in the face of the facts.

2)  Saying that the Ponto only has to be "programmed correctly ONCE" seems to suggest that the Ponto has an advantage in that regard over any other aid on the market, BP100 included.  But, in reality, that's generally true of ANY hearing aid.  It only has to be programmed CORRECTLY ONCE.  Be it the Ponto Pro, BP100, Divino, Intenso, etc..  as long as it's programmed correctly the first time, it only has to be programmed once..  The "advantage" in that is universal and not soley given to the good folks at Oticon.

3)  It seems to me that your dissatisfaction with the available resources to fit and program your BP100 seems to be at the root of the problem here.  Being in Hawaii, you may well have more Oticon reps available to you than Cochlear (at least ones familar with the Ponto over and above ones available for the BP100).  That, I suppose, was a marketing strategy/decision made by Cochlear to only have a handful (one?) rep familar with their BP100 in Hawaii.  By your own words, Oticon doesn't have ANY reps in Hawaii.  Which company is better?  One who has one rep there, that may not be very good on the new product or a company who has NO reps in Hawaii?  If the local rep hasn't lived up to the Cochlear standards of excellence, perhaps you can engage them directly in order to put to rest your BP100 woes?  Keep in mind that with no local reps in Hawaii, then you'll likely run into similar problems in getting the Ponto Pro programmed to your liking.

DISCLAIMER:  I don't use either the BP100 nor the Ponto Pro.  In fact, I don't use ANY hearing aid or BAHA unit (digital or otherwise).  However, my AN surgeon (one of them) is on Cochlear's list of local docs that do the implant surgery, so I will give that it's due weight if/when I decide on getting a device to help with my SSD.  I've only commented on what seems to me to be the central issues you've brought up about the BP100 vs Ponto Pro and Cochlear vs Oticon.

I hope that you find a product that works well for you and a company that works well WITH you to get what you want out of your hearing device.

Regards,
Brian

[rust1975]

Hi, then I should clarify some things as well.

1. Poor choice of language to suggest the BP100/Ponto as the first digital BAHAs. I intended to say fully programmable digital BAHAs - they both make that claim, not me. This is the fact you should be referring to. And if it's wrong, it's not my lie. I'm just a parrot here, repeating what they're selling.

2. Didn't mean to imply the Ponto only had to be programmed correctly once. Yes, any hearing aid has to only be programmed correctly once to work right. Well, for six months I'd had numerous audiologists look at my BP100 - even Cochlear itself which admitted the transducer was defective - so my experiences in this regard have not been good. You're taking it this too literally. I'm hoping (fingers crossed) that because of the universality of the programming software for the Ponto, programming it (even once or twice or three times) will be easier and not take as long as six months. So yes, there is an advantage to Oticon in my opinion.

3. Available resources have been explored on my part. I've spoken with audiologists in 4 states now. Being in Hawaii is just my situation as of now, as I am originally from Texas and moving back there within a few months. I'm currently working with Oticon to get their lists of vendors in my new area, even was supposed to meet with one during my last trip home. I'm not denying my resources are limited right now. But after exploring several different avenues and having Cochlear themselves program off my audiogram, again, six months is adequate to tell me little progress is being made and is frustrating.

So is the Ponto the answer? I can't say. I'll be picking it up from UPS later on today, getting it programmed tomorrow with an audiologist who's familiar with the setup and I'll post thoughts then. Remember, there are no vendors (audiologists who can sell the device) here yet, but there are audiologists capable of working with it. Which is the route I'm going.

And hey, the best part: I get a 90-day return on the Ponto with no payment from me until I decide. Now that's customer service, lol. 

[Pooter]

Russ,

1.  Cochlear claims to be the first fully programmable BAHA unit available; Oticon doesn't make this claim that I've seen.  Oticon claims that the Ponto family has the first fully digital fitting software; Cochlear doesn't make this claim.  Small distinction, but if one or the other is telling you something different (the reps are), then they're not being true to their respective company's claims on their website.

2.  I have no knowledge of what software either company uses for programming their units.  I can tell you that if something is "based on" something else, that leaves open the possibility that it's loosely related but not really the same..  one could argue, for example, that the iPhone was "based on" the original telephone design of Alexander Graham Bell (the original phone).  True statement?  Perhaps, depends on how you define "based on"...  So, the claim that their software was "based on" the same fitting software that reps are used to using can mean radically differerent things depending on how you define "based on" and what it really means.  I am not familar with either, so I can't really tell you if that's a plus for them or not.  Btw, "based on" is their words right off their website, not mine.. 

3.  I agree that having a unit by any company programmed multiple times often at 6 month stretches of time would frustrate me also.  Where in Texas are you going back to?  I'm in Houston right now..  Depending on where you are going, I'm sure Oticon and Cochlear both have good audiologists for their products (maybe sometimes the same person?)..

I agree that the 90-day trial is a good thing.  I had an audiologist give me a similar "deal" on the TransEar if I wanted to try that..  BAHA units (Cochlear BAHA, Oticon Ponto Pro, Divino, etc...) are harder to "try before you buy" because of the implant..  But, since you already have the abutment, then trying the processor before you buy is a good thing..  Is Cochlear going to refund you for their processor?

I'm interested in your thoughts of the Ponto Pro after you've tried it..  I'm still exploring options for a hearing device, so any input is good input to me..

Regards,
Brian

[leapyrtwins]

As I understand it, the Intenso model has been out several years at least and it's a digital BAHA unit. 

Just wanted to note that the Divino is digital also.

As Russ said, the BP100 is the first programmable digital BAHA.

Jan