Author Topic: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?  (Read 3966 times)

kenneth_k

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Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« on: May 10, 2010, 08:03:41 am »
Hello everyone.

I just talked to my surgeon. There are only 2 people ind Demark who knows how to operate this stuff.
They are off to a conference the next weeks.

I will be admitted to hospital the 26th May and have a lumbar drain the 27th. Who has tried that and how was it like?
The doctors are back 1st june, and they will remove the drain. If I'm still leaking, they will operate again.

If I get a high fever before I'm supposed to go to the hospital, he told me to call 9-1-1.
Now I've gone from nervous to scared :'(

Kenneth

4cm in Pacific Northwest

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2010, 10:07:23 am »
Kenneth,

I never got a fever with my leak... (Thank God!)

I also never had the lumbar drain. In truth I am worried that a lumbar could create another point of entry for bacteria with you.

Have they even tried to put you on diamox yet?
Here is the link to the generic name for the drug.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetazolamide

When I had my initial leak my surgeon was on vacation so I empathize there- with leaking and being alone ... Nevertheless the only 2 capable surgeons in Denmark both going away together leaving the patients with no one- is sad. That is NOT impressive. I am SOOH sorry you are having to go through this. (Gee I not getting the best impression of healthcare in Denmark there ... but maybe this is an isolated case?)

When I  feel I have exhausted all avenues in my attempts to problem solve on my own and I have reached out to others for help with no results... I then move to prayer.

You are in my prayers that the CSF leak stops, there is no fluid build up and that you get well... I did not have medical intervention with my leaks but there may have still been intervention... as my CSF leak did eventually stop.

In the meantime do not strain yourself, no lifting, and avoid salty foods that can cause water retention and swelling. Do not bend over putting the head below the waist (IE tying shoes etc)  Try to eat naturally diuretic foods. Stay clear of social environments with people who may be sick: pot luck dinners, schools, shopping malls, standing in line at the pharmacist etc... and lay low until this heals up.

Kenneth you are in my prayers today.
Cyber HUGS from a Canadian residing in Oregon USA

DHM


4cm Left, 08/22/07 R/S 11+ hr surgery Stanford U, Dr. Robert Jackler, Dr. Griffith Harsh, Canadian fellow Assist. Dr. Sumit Agrawal. SSD, 3/6 on HB facial scale, stick-on-eyeweight worked, 95% eye function@ 6 months. In neuromuscular facial retraining. Balance regained! Recent MRI -tumor receded!

kmancini

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2010, 10:23:11 am »
Hi, been there done that.  I have had 2 lumbar drains.  I was awake for the first one and asleep for the second one.  It wasnt the most enjoyable experience.  But once it is in you dont feel it.  It was just annoying.  They had to come in and turn on the drain every hour 24/7 for so many days.  they dont have to wake you for it, but you know they are there.  Mine didn't work.  SoI had 4 surgeries.  I am ok now.

Karen
An surgery 4-8-08
lumbar drain 4-22-08
csf leak repair 5-30-08 7-11-08 10-6 -08and 10-24-08
BAHA on 10-24-08
university hosp in Cleveland
Dr Megarian and Dr Selman

kenneth_k

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 12:12:59 pm »
Thank for your replies so far.

In all fairness to the doctors. He told me, it was bad luck they are out of the country the next weeks.
They only do 40 operations per year (Denmark is a small country afterall).

jerseygirl

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 01:09:12 pm »
Kenneth,

I am so sorry you have to go through this! What is unusual is that this CSF leak happens so late after surgery. This is really strange and scary for all of us! It is not great that the  only 2 available neurosurgeons in Denmark are going away but unfortunately, this situation can happen in the US as well. Many of us travel for surgery for one reason or another across the US , and, if we start leaking at home and have to come back to the original neurosurgeon by plane for additional treatment, it is by no means fast and easy. There are many neurosurgeons in the US but most are very territorial and will not see you after surgery. It's nerve-wracking, expensive and inconvenient, so I completely empathize!

You have been given excellent advice so far. I would like to add that if you get a giant headache, call 9-11 anyway even if there is no fever because the fever will be there soon enough. Once in the hospital, demand broad spectrum antibiotics because the danger of any CSF leak is meningitis which can have worse consequences that the surgery itself.

The way the leak is manged in the US if the patient is far away from the original neurosurgeon is to try DIamox first. Then, if it does not work completely, at least it reduces the leak and the patient can travel by plane for additional treatment much safer (imagine how many interesting infections one can pick up on the airplane). Diamox is a sulfa drug which some people are allergic to, myself incluided. So, this medication was not an option for me. If I leaked, I would have to travel back- not an attractive option.

A step above in terms of invasiveness is a lumbar drain. The patient is put in the hospital anywhere from 1-9 days, lumbar drain is inserted and CSF liquid is collected into a closed system, not exposed to air. Everybody does it a little bit differently, so there is no sense of talking about the details. It is a chance of infection but not as much as the brain surgery and they do cover you with antibiotics. I had one for 9 days after my first surgery in 1988 and it was actually the worst experience I remember mainly because I had to lie in bed pefectly still and every attempt to get up or even lift my head from the pillow resulted in a  gigantic low pressure headache when too much too fast CSF is drained away. Let's hope the system your doctors will use will be more forgiving to rapid changes in your position. My CSF actually did not leak but collected around the incison area which kept increasing in size giving me a high pressure headache - the mother of all headaches. The fact that your CSF leak, prevents you from having it because it prevents CSF from building up.

The next step  is a shunt. Some neurosurgeons will even skip the lumbar drain and go straight to shunting. There are two general classes of shunts - lumbar peritoneal and ventricular peritoneal. The first one drains CSF from your spine to to the stomach and the second one goes from your head to your stomach. The first one is considered simpler and easier in all respects but not all patients are candidates. I got an LP shunt in 1988 after my lumbar drain failed and it allowed me to finally start healing. If my memory serves me right, I would not have gotten it if I had your type of CSF leak (it would have been a VP shunt)  but I would not be surprised if that would be different from doctor to doctor.

The final step is surgery - to repair the source of a leak. It is different for everybody because the source can be different. Some people have a problem with the Eustachean tube, others have their incision cleaned and redone. I can't  even begin to guess what your problem is.

If you are not allergic to sulfa drugs, try to find out if Diamox is available in Denmark and try to have somebody prescribe it. Meanwhile, your goal is to avoid the infection, so try to keep everything clean (especially your hands), avoid crowds as well as bending and lifting anything other than the telephone.

Please, keep us posted as to how you and your family are doing. Best of luck and, even though it is a scary time, try to breath! Chances are overwhelming that everything will be fine at the end.

             Eve

PS According to the latest thinking, the danger of meningitis in the absence of CSF build-up, headache and fever is small, that is why you have not received antibiotics so far. Your doctors are not being negligent.
Right side AN (6x3x3 cm) removed in 1988 by Drs. Benjamin & Cohen at NYU (16 hrs); nerves involved III - XII.
Regrowth at the brainstem 2.5 cm removed by Dr.Shahinian in 4 hrs at SBI (hopefully, this time forever); nerves involved IV - X with VIII missing. No facial or swallowing issues.

Cheryl R

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2010, 07:20:16 am »
Plus drs can have varying opinions.     The dr who did my leak surgery said he did not believe in the drain if have a leak past a week after your first surgery as does not think they work as much as needed.    I had surgery to fix it and was fine since.       I did know of one person who had it before the week and they did the drain and had it several days and eventually was ok.
                                         Cheryl R
                                                   
Right mid fossa 11-01-01
  left tumor found 5-03,so have NF2
  trans lab for right facial nerve tumor
  with nerve graft 3-23-06
   CSF leak revision surgery 4-07-06
   left mid fossa 4-17-08
   near deaf on left before surgery
   with hearing much improved .
    Univ of Iowa for all care

Lizard

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2010, 11:49:04 am »
Kenneth, Don't be too worried, just try to stay home and relax until you are admitted.  I'm sure the surgery will be a piece of cake compared to the AN surgery, mine was and I had a horrible spinal headache as well.  I hope all goes well and you are back on your feet quickly.
Take care and let us know how everything goes.
Liz
Left AN 2.5CM,retrosigmoid 11/2008, second surgery to repair CSF leak. 
Headaches began immediately.  Dr. Ducic occipital nerve resection, December 2011!!!!!

"When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on"
-Franklin D. Roosevelt

kenneth_k

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2010, 12:50:26 pm »
I'm very happy that you have taken some time to give me good advice.
I tested the "lumbar drain first - then surgery"-plan with the air force chief of staff/medical.

He is also a neurosurgeon and has operated several AN patients in the UK. He doesn't do surgery any more.
He thinks it sounds like a good plan.

Eve - he also thinks it is rare for a CSF leak to show so late, nevertheless it does happen.

I must be unlucky - but at least not in my love life - I have a very sweet wife who has given me a great deal of support lately, now that we know what's wrong. ;)

Lizard

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 08:16:05 pm »
Its so good to hear you have great support from your wife.  I know it can be very difficult to deal with these complications, but its great to have someone to lean on.
I thank god that I didn't have to go through this alone, my husband was the best nurse and it seems your wife is too...

Liz
Left AN 2.5CM,retrosigmoid 11/2008, second surgery to repair CSF leak. 
Headaches began immediately.  Dr. Ducic occipital nerve resection, December 2011!!!!!

"When you come to the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on"
-Franklin D. Roosevelt

4cm in Pacific Northwest

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 10:01:33 pm »
but at least not in my love life - I have a very sweet wife who has given me a great deal of support lately,

That is SO sweet... I think your wife is very lucky too.
 :)

DHM
4cm Left, 08/22/07 R/S 11+ hr surgery Stanford U, Dr. Robert Jackler, Dr. Griffith Harsh, Canadian fellow Assist. Dr. Sumit Agrawal. SSD, 3/6 on HB facial scale, stick-on-eyeweight worked, 95% eye function@ 6 months. In neuromuscular facial retraining. Balance regained! Recent MRI -tumor receded!

painter

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Re: Definite CSF leak - any good advice?
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2010, 08:58:01 am »
Kenneth,
Best of luck to you, it's unfortunate that you have to go through this.  Eve gave a lot of good advice and info about the lumbar drains.  I never heard of it as a final solution.  I had to have surgery for a leak and they put in a lumbar drain right before. I was in the hospital for several days before the drain was removed.  Where I ran into trouble was they didn't allow me to get up or down, because my head always had to be at a certain level.  The danger in this is the chance of blood clots in your legs. Please request that they be vigilant either by compression socks and pulsating wraps.  At the very least, your legs should be elevated if you can't get out of bed.  Something to consider.
Take care, Kenneth.
Tom