Author Topic: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...  (Read 11097 times)

Kate B

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2009, 05:13:45 am »
Most major decisions in our lives are somehow based on this, right? So here I am, with a new MRI showing growth and my neurotologist recommending action - either surgery or radiation. He has, in the past 6 yrs, started doing GK himself, in addition to surgery.

I'm curious how and at what point in your research did your gut feeling kick in ... and, importantly, did it ever change once it did?


Oh my yes!  I often decribed it as "kelp" in the ocean.  Without getting into a semantic debate over gut or not gut, the reality is that ultimately it is our body and we must make the best decision with the information we have at hand.  How lucky people are to be technologically savvy enough ( I say that because the typical age is middle age at diagnosis. We are all digital immigrants not digital natives like those young uns out there).
I learned about facilities and treatment types more from folks on this forum (or listserv) that I would have not known otherwise.

Our tumor size, location and our age are going to be part of the decision making process.  Some by nature of the size of his/her tumor are limited in choice.  

I have never met anyone who didn't want to be the same after a treatment as they were before a treatment.  I looked at patterns in the posts and I read about outcomes relative to treatment when coupled with size of tumor, and I asked the doctor "how many of this surgery he had done" and "how many of that they had done" and his/her statistics relative to hearing and facial nerve.  

When I first learned of my acoustic I was referred to an ENT.  I thought with certainty that I would go to a research hospital in Chicago.That lead me to a doctor who although did not do treatment himself had trained under a doctor who did.  I also asked around and learned of a renown neurologist at a well known hospital and was featured as one of Chicago's best docs... However, I learned that it was not he who was known for AN's, it was another colleague at Loyola. When I contacted this organization, I learned about Mary (she was a godsend) who was my WTT person and she gave me names of the two most used doctors in Illinois.  I consulted with both of them. I learned about House and sent my MRI's and report there.  All in all, I consulted with multiple surgeons.

I did make contact through email with a GK doctor out of UPMC and and sent my MRI's to a FSR doctor (Cyberknife was just coming on the scene in 2001).  I ended up making contact with both radiation and surgery treatments. I learned something from each one. 

Here were a few of the patterns I found: (through my consultations and research experience)

1. It is documented that in surgery the shorter one can be under, the better. I found in my research that House Ear Institute's surgery time was almost half of what other institution surgery times were meaning you were "under" for a shorter period of time.  Typically, they are between 4 and 5 hours. There is a thread about this now in this forum.

2. Just because a doctor tells you there is a high rate of hearing preservation, ask for his stats and ask around. Although the doctors I visited in my own area discussed the retrosigmoid surgery as "hearing preservation" ( I had 100% prior to surgery), in all the folks I met, not one in Chicago had their hearing preserved with retrosigmoid (not to say I met them all:-)  (and I know there are examples in this forum of some who did). Yet each of those folks went in hoping to preserve hearing.  I also went to an eye doctor used by the folks I use in Chicago and he said I was a surprise as the patients that come to him after AN surgery did not keep any hearing.

3.  Regarding side effects: It seemed that the most  longterm "headaches" (after the healing process) came from those with retrosigmoid and I found research to confirm that. (~10%)

4. Radiation doctors state that it is no more complicated to have surgery after radiation then it is before and surgeons ABSOLUTELY disagree because the area when radiated is "burned".  I asked the House Surgeons and they explained why it was more difficult.  

5. Work with your insurance company to try to go to the facility of your choice. In my case, the insurance company assigned a case manager and after contacting House, House agreed to be an "in network" provider even though they were in California and I was in Illinois.

6. Regarding radiation: Gamma Knife has the most history and research behind it.

7. Surgery effects were known typically within six months while radiation effects are often not known until 2 years later.

8. All doctors have their prophets depending on individual outcomes...look at the statistics relative to all of their patients.

9. There are times that no matter how thorough we are, unanticipated consequences happen.

10. The time to question yourself is prior to making a decision...Once you make a decision with the best information at hand, don't look back and second guess yourself...

11. Sometimes "fear" relative to one treatment is used by others as the "reason" to have the other type of treatment.

12. One size does not fit all.

13.  Until your tumor is treated, you won't know your outcome...no matter how much you read.

In the end, I tried to match the patterns with the tumor and my best hopes: facial nerve preservation and usable hearing (and in that order). I also looked at the patterns with residual side effects.  So mine was a combination of research for information and patterns and then matching it to my best hopes. 

I have also started a thread about the decision making process to help bring clarity about what is important to each person. I called it "One Size Does Not Fit All."  http://anausa.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601.0

All the best to each of your trying to figure out your own path.
Kate



« Last Edit: May 23, 2009, 06:32:13 am by Kate B »
Kate
Middle Fossa Surgery
@ House Ear Institute with
Dr. Brackmann, Dr. Hitselberger
November 2001
1.5 right sided AN

Please visit http://anworld.com/

ppearl214

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2009, 05:27:22 am »
Kate, you know I love you dearly but I have to respectfully disagree with some of your points.

1.  I have spoken to quite a few from these forums that have, after the fact, regret micro-surgical decisions that they have made (some even treated at House Ear/HEI)... basically, "if I knew then what I experience now, I never would have chose the surgery I had". In respect to the "confidentiality" requests they have made to me, I cannot elaborate more but on occassion, it has been posted in the forums as well. Will see if any of them step up to the plate on this as they are still active participants on the forums.

2.  Your point #4.... I know of many radio-docs that are not noting that it is not of issue to remove a previously radiated AN....... most are noting, up front, when discussing "risks" in the "decision making process" that clearly note it. I also believe the drs on the CK Patient Support board noted it as well. Will have to dig up the threads on it.

3.  Re: GK... you are absolutely correct in that it has been around the longest (over 40 yrs, since mid-1960's) but one should not discount other radio options (regardless if CK, Trilogy, etc) as times change, technologies change and with the wonders of medical advances, with supporting data behind it (yes, not as long as GK, but when results are noted... as well as first-hand patient accounts of successes and non-successes), one should not discount other options, even if it hasn't been around as long.  Heck, Captn Deb had a surgical procedure this week that was done arthroscopically that for years, has been done with major incision and lengthy recuperation period... yet, she was home 24 hrs later and on the mend quicker.  We can't discount how medical advances have been made.

Other than that, I agree with what you have shared for the most part... and as always, truly appreciate what you share... :)

Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

Kate B

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2009, 05:39:08 am »
Kate, you know I love you dearly but I have to respectfully disagree with some of your points.

1.  I have spoken to quite a few from these forums that have, after the fact, regret micro-surgical decisions that they have made (some even treated at House Ear/HEI)... basically, "if I knew then what I experience now, I never would have chose the surgery I had". In respect to the "confidentiality" requests they have made to me, I cannot elaborate more but on occassion, it has been posted in the forums as well. Will see if any of them step up to the plate on this as they are still active participants on the forums.

2.  Your point #4.... I know of many radio-docs that are not noting that it is not of issue to remove a previously radiated AN....... most are noting, up front, when discussing "risks" in the "decision making process" that clearly note it. I also believe the drs on the CK Patient Support board noted it as well. Will have to dig up the threads on it.

3.  Re: GK... you are absolutely correct in that it has been around the longest (over 40 yrs, since mid-1960's) but one should not discount other radio options (regardless if CK, Trilogy, etc) as times change, technologies change and with the wonders of medical advances, with supporting data behind it (yes, not as long as GK, but when results are noted... as well as first-hand patient accounts of successes and non-successes), one should not discount other options, even if it hasn't been around as long.  Heck, Captn Deb had a surgical procedure this week that was done arthroscopically that for years, has been done with major incision and lengthy recuperation period... yet, she was home 24 hrs later and on the mend quicker.  We can't discount how medical advances have been made.

Other than that, I agree with what you have shared for the most part... and as always, truly appreciate what you share... :)

Phyl

Phyl,

I am thankful for disagreement..it always results in clarification and opportunity for dialogue for newbies to follow.

#1:  I agree and it matches #13 in my baker's dozen.  "Until your tumor is treated, you won't know your outcome...no matter how much you read." 

#2: I am glad that has changed.

#3: Agreed...

Mutual Admiration Society Member,
Kate
« Last Edit: May 22, 2009, 05:44:48 am by Kate B »
Kate
Middle Fossa Surgery
@ House Ear Institute with
Dr. Brackmann, Dr. Hitselberger
November 2001
1.5 right sided AN

Please visit http://anworld.com/

ppearl214

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2009, 05:44:27 am »

Mutual Admiration Society Member,
Kate


luffs ya back :)  :-*
Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

CHD63

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2009, 07:38:28 am »
I think we may be stepping on many people's toes here by defending positions, etc.  Perhaps for those still in Wait and Watch and/or in the throes of treatment decision options, it would be best to say that every human body is different.  Therefore no matter which treatment(s??) is selected, no matter which physician/surgeon does it, no matter which hospital, etc. etc. we really cannot say for certainty what the final outcome will be.  Ultimately one must arrive at the best decision for that person's situation, hopefully based on research, and then be at peace with it.

We need to be careful here with stating statistics, etc. because as everyone well knows statistics can be twisted any way someone wants to make a point in their direction/favor.  Also, many of us have defied the so-called stats and had much better outcomes than predicted.

Sorry.  Just had to get that off my chest.   :-[  Clarice
Right MVD for trigeminal neuralgia, 1994, Pittsburgh, PA
Left retrosigmoid 2.6 cm AN removal, February, 2008, Duke U
Tumor regrew to 1.3 cm in February, 2011
Translab AN removal, May, 2011 at HEI, Friedman & Schwartz
Oticon Ponto Pro abutment implant at same time; processor added August, 2011

cindyj

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2009, 07:40:40 am »
Well, to get back to the "gut" thing, I definitely had a gut feeling fairly soon after doing just a minimal amount of research - it stayed with me after doing much research and after consulting with numerous doctors.  There is NO way to know, in advance, exactly how your situation will turn out...irregardless of treatment type, doctor skill, etc.  I think you have to pick your method and your doctor and then just completely have faith in yourself that you've chosen as well as you possibly can, given the circumstances.  Beyond the extreme case, most folks that have trouble post-treatment (radiation or surgery), really have little, if any way of knowing whether they are having trouble based on the treatment type, doctor choice, or just the nature of the beast that is an acoustic neuroma...This is what makes our decision so tough - we can not base our decison on the outcomes of others as their is now way to duplicate the situations of others.  Surgeons - oh, I'll stop, I'm beginning to ramble...this probably is not worded very well - wish I had Steve's and Jim's gift of conveying their thoughts well :)

Cindy
rt side 1.5 cm - Translab on 11/07/08 Dr. Friedman & Dr. Schwartz of House Ear Institute,
feeling great!

"Life consists not in holding good cards, but in playing well those you do hold."  Josh Billings

Cheryl R

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2009, 08:02:47 am »
How people react after a health treatment varies with any type of health condition or treatment.  I saw this a great deal in working as a nurse for many years.    How things may turn out at the end is not always how you think it will be.            What ones personality is like plays a part of this and there are some who are not happy not matter how they have been treated or sometimes lucky to be in as good a shape as they are.     Some are happy even when things maybe could have been done better or with another dr.                             Sometimes people do not really understand that they have a significant medical problem and you may not ever be "normal" again but will have some adjustments of life.   There is not always perfect treatment of many conditions.
We are all different.                    Drs are all different too.                       No good answer to all of this.
                                                                       Cheryl R
Right mid fossa 11-01-01
  left tumor found 5-03,so have NF2
  trans lab for right facial nerve tumor
  with nerve graft 3-23-06
   CSF leak revision surgery 4-07-06
   left mid fossa 4-17-08
   near deaf on left before surgery
   with hearing much improved .
    Univ of Iowa for all care

ppearl214

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2009, 09:00:02 am »
How people react after a health treatment varies with any type of health condition or treatment.  I saw this a great deal in working as a nurse for many years.    How things may turn out at the end is not always how you think it will be.            What ones personality is like plays a part of this and there are some who are not happy not matter how they have been treated or sometimes lucky to be in as good a shape as they are.     Some are happy even when things maybe could have been done better or with another dr.                             Sometimes people do not really understand that they have a significant medical problem and you may not ever be "normal" again but will have some adjustments of life.   There is not always perfect treatment of many conditions.
We are all different.                    Drs are all different too.                       No good answer to all of this.
                                                                       Cheryl R

Cheryl... agreed... there truly is no good answer.

To me, whether right or wrong.... re: the gut reaction.... the question then becomes "how do you respond to the gut?"  We can only hope that everyone does extensive research.  We can only hope that folks talk to others that walk the shoes.   To me, regardless if the gut is responding to decision making process for anything in life (ie: medical treatments, career changes... heck, even marriage proposals......)... how should one respond to the gut?  Do we listen? Do we not?

Heck, no clue.

Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

sgerrard

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2009, 09:07:20 am »
it turned out to be the wrong decision (for me)

There is a difference between the wrong decision and a good decision that nevertheless turns out poorly. I think Bob made a good decision at the time, but all of us have to accept the fact that the best decision is not a guarantee of a good outcome. For radiation, there is a chance  that it will not control growth; for surgery, there is a chance of long term facial paralysis. The risk is there no matter which doctor, facility, or procedure you choose.

For many of us, this is the first time in our lives that we have to make a major decision for ourselves, and have no option available that guarantees a good outcome. We can only choose what seems best, and hope we are not unlucky.

Steve
8 mm left AN June 2007,  CK at Stanford Sept 2007.
Hearing lasted a while, but left side is deaf now.
Right side is weak too. Life is quiet.

Lilan

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2009, 09:34:02 am »
There is a difference between the wrong decision and a good decision that nevertheless turns out poorly.

Nicely put and an important point.
Facial nerve hemangioma. Probable dx 7/2008 confirmed 4/2009. Combo middle fossa and translab to remove the blood vessel malformation and snip ruined hearing and balance nerves by Drs. House and Brackmann @ House 6/2009. Doing great!

ppearl214

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2009, 11:39:39 am »
  One size does not fit all.

agreed.. "individual results may vary....."    :)

Yes, topic is use of the "gut reaction" in the decision making process.

"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

Jeepers

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2009, 01:19:19 pm »
Thanks for all of your responses!!

Kate - for taking the time to post such valuable information that is mimicing much of what I'm going thru right now.

Cindy - you actually hit the nail on the head when you point out how difficult it is to base a decision on research when so much is subject to the variety of patients and situations

Steve - for pointing out what may, in fact, be the ultimate bottom line ... "luck"  :)

All of you make great points and I appreciate hearing all your stories.

I've returned from my meeting with the neurosurgeon who operates with the neurotologist. It was a good meeting. I had already heard he had a wonderful reputation. I have to admit though that I preferred the appt with my neurotologist - he does both micro and radiosurg and does not push either one. Even 6 yrs back when he was not doing GK, when asked about radiation, he said it was certainly an option and provided referrals.

It's sometimes very obvious that some specialists mention certain statistics in order to sway your opinion. Do I resent it? Sometimes ... yes. On the other hand, I think ... here's someone who is (in my case) an exceptional surgeon. There's really nothing a surgeon or radiologist knows about ANs that they AREN'T telling us. The whole shebang is a clustermuck of information, many times with no right or wrong answer ... again, just luck. They don't know what's in your head and what it's wrapped around or stuck to. So they just follow their specialty and (to put it kind of indelicately) try to make the sale. They are trying to help us make a decision because at some point or another, something one of them says is going to hit us in ... you got it ... the "gut".

When all is said and done, as Steve points out, both procedures involve risk. We choose one or the other based on the chances we feel comfortable taking.


Aaaaaaaaaargh!!  :(


Diagnosed 2003-right side-1cm AN
Wait and watch for 6 yrs; 2009 showed growth w/balance issues
Translab 7/9/09 - Drs. Battista/Kazan (Hinsdale IL); SSD
Recovering well!

ppearl214

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2009, 01:36:04 pm »
We choose one or the other based on the chances we feel comfortable taking.

hey Jeepers,

glad your appt went well and you hit a lot directly on the head... so, based on your last comment.... what is your gut telling you?

Phyl
"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"

Jeepers

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2009, 01:53:34 pm »
We choose one or the other based on the chances we feel comfortable taking.

hey Jeepers,

glad your appt went well and you hit a lot directly on the head... so, based on your last comment.... what is your gut telling you?

Phyl


HAH! Thanks, Phyl ... see my new post ... "A quick question ..."

I think a Friday evening cocktail might be in order tonight!  ;D
Diagnosed 2003-right side-1cm AN
Wait and watch for 6 yrs; 2009 showed growth w/balance issues
Translab 7/9/09 - Drs. Battista/Kazan (Hinsdale IL); SSD
Recovering well!

ppearl214

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Re: Ramblings about the GUT feeling ...
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2009, 02:13:15 pm »
We choose one or the other based on the chances we feel comfortable taking.

hey Jeepers,

glad your appt went well and you hit a lot directly on the head... so, based on your last comment.... what is your gut telling you?

Phyl


HAH! Thanks, Phyl ... see my new post ... "A quick question ..."

I think a Friday evening cocktail might be in order tonight!  ;D

saw the new post.. and I agree... :)

"Gentlemen, I wash my hands of this weirdness", Capt Jack Sparrow - Davy Jones Locker, "Pirates of the Carribbean - At World's End"