Author Topic: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??  (Read 13507 times)

annamaria

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Anyone is entitled to their layman opinion ...
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2013, 06:55:42 pm »
Anyone is entitled to their layman opinion, but this thread started with a MEDICAL SCIENTIFIC paper from a reputable institution, NOT A MEDIA ARTICLE. The data was based on a VERY LARGE SET of CASES, hence it has, by necessity, a statistical weight. If you don't trust the medical researchers, who do you trust?

The fact may be in the end that cell phones alone don't cause ANs directly, but for some susceptible gene-impacted individuals, it is a relevant contributing factor. Many similar predicaments can be cited in medicine. For example, running 10 miles is perfectly ok for many people, but if you have three heart veins clogged, run two miles and you may get an heart attack; for this person, running is bad, for others it's ok...

Is this concept so hard to understand?

Did it take 150 or 100 years to understand that smoking causes you lung cancer (which then also spreads to the brain)? Did it take 200 years to understand that strong sun exposure causes skin cancer? Did it take 50 years to understand that fatty foods can cause coronary heart disease?  it may take 20 years to understand that radiation causes AN (as people now understand that radiation causes meningioma)...

Annamaria

annamaria

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2013, 04:28:30 am »
As a follow up, this study looked at 791,710 people for over 7 years. 1,261 cases of brain tumor/cancer developed.  The results are based on this large cohort, and so the results have statistical weight/validity...usually studies are much smaller in size and thus have questionable validity...

...take for example the study JUST published, below. The looked at 37 people! The conclusion drawn within the study are of limited statistical validity...

= = = = =
Front Oncol. 2013 May 17;3:121. doi: 10.3389/fonc.2013.00121. Print 2013.

Frameless fractionated stereotactic radiosurgery for vestibular schwannomas: a single-institution experience.

Karam SD, Tai A, Strohl A, Steehler MK, Rashid A, Gagnon G, Harter KW, Jay AK, Collins SP, Kim JH, Jean W.


Source

Department of Radiation Medicine, MedStar Georgetown University Hospital Washington, DC, USA.


Abstract


Objective: To examine tumor control, hearing preservation, and complication rates after frameless fractionated stereotactic radiosurgery (SRS) in patients with vestibular schwannomas (VS).

Methods: Thirty-seven patients treated with fractionated SRS from 2002 to 2011 were retrospectively analyzed. Ninety-five percent were treated with 25 Gy in five fractions, targeting a median tumor volume of 1.03 cc (range 0.14-7.60).

Results: With a median follow-up of 4.25 years (range, 15 months-9 years), no tumors required an additional treatment resulting in 100% tumor control rate.

Radiographic control rate was 91% in 32 patients at a median follow-up of 3 years.

Of the 14 patients with serviceable hearing and with audiograms, the hearing preservation rate was 78% at a median follow-up of 18 months.

Twenty-six patients with serviceable hearing pretreatment, were evaluated by a phone survey with a hearing preservation rate of 73% at a 5 year median follow-up.

There were two cases that developed both new increased trigeminal parasthesias and facial spasms but there were no cases of facial weakness. Patient had 96% of good to excellent satisfaction rate with the treatment at a median follow-up of 5 years.

Conclusion: Frameless fractionated SRS treatment of VS results in good rate of tumor control. Hearing preservation rate and rates of cranial nerve toxicity are comparable to what is reported in the literature. Patients choose this modality because of its non-invasive nature and are generally very satisfied with their long term outcome.

Darren

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2013, 11:51:33 pm »
Mute point. It has been proven in Italy. Can't wait to sue;)

Jim Scott

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #18 on: June 17, 2013, 03:36:39 pm »
Annamaria ~

I appreciate your passion on the cellphone-AN issue but if the study results were as clear-cut as you insist, I think we might have seen it publicized in the mainstream media. 

However, just as approximately 50% of the population chose not to smoke before the cigarette-cancer correlation was proven but suspected that smoking was risky to their health, anyone who believes that using a cell phone next to their ear or undergoing any typical type of X-ray is a potential 'trigger' for AN growth should avoid using a cell phone or undergoing X-rays. 

Being frustrated when others remain skeptical of something you are convinced is true is certainly understandable but does not generally persuade those who remain unconvinced.  In short, we are all entitled to our opinions and while the cell phone-X-ray-AN connection may be obvious to you, it apparently remains less so to others.  In time and with more such broad-based studies, that may well change.  If so, you'll be able to know that you were there to warn us early on and, perhaps, save some folks AN-related problems.

Jim   
4.5 cm AN diagnosed 5/06.  Retrosigmoid surgery 6/06.  Follow-up FSR completed 10/06.  Tumor shrinkage & necrosis noted on last MRI.  Life is good. 

Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is.  The way we cope with it is what makes the difference.

Tod

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #19 on: June 17, 2013, 05:34:10 pm »
I'm not sure all the scientists agree with the quality of the science:

Quote
Although the risk was elevated for women who used a cell phone for ten or more years (about 60% greater than never users), this effect was not significant. Since this may be the first study to find an association between cell phone use and pituitary cancer, further research on this cancer is necessary.

The women reported their cell phone use in 2005 to 2009 and again in 2009 and were followed through 2011 to see whether they developed tumors. The analyses controlled for other factors associated with tumor risk.

The study had numerous weaknesses which may explain why the research failed to replicate the increased risk of glioma associated with cell phone use of ten or more years found in several previous studies. Although this was a prospective study, the assessment of cell phone use was poor. Cell phone use was measured only at two time points and in a crude manner. The authors considered anyone who used a cell phone at least a minute per week to be a cell phone user. Although the authors measured the amount of cell phone use per week at follow-up, they did not report these results.The study did not assess cordless phone use or other microwave radiation exposures that are similar to cell phone emissions. If the never-cell phone users were cordless phone users, the effect of cell phone use on brain tumor risk would have been underestimated.
http://www.avaate.org/article.php3?id_article=2386

My professional work with surveys and self-assessments of/by students and faculty over the last couple of decades leaves me with little faith in the accuracy of self reported use data. I do a lot of tracking of individuals over a 10 year period of time. Statewide. I'm always hesitant about the level of occurrence of a behavior or characteristic to call it a significant factor. For the study cited, I'm not sure I would be comfortable with the "minute per week" usage as the criterion on which to hang my hat. I would have probably created three levels of usage to determine if there was a difference between the high and low usage categories.

As for the studies with much smaller sample sizes, yep, they are pretty much garbage. Unfortunately, such studies are most common to medical research. So, we'll see if another study of this size can be done with better analytics.

-Tod



Bob the tumor: 4.4cm x 3.9cm x 4.1 cm.
Trans-Lab and Retro-sigmoid at MCV on 2/12/2010.

Removed 90-95% in a 32 hour surgery. Two weeks in ICU.  SSD Left.

http://randomdatablog.com

BAHA implant 1/25/11.

28 Sessions of FSR @ MCV ended 2/9/12.

PaulW

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 07:56:35 pm »
I think its important to understand the difference between ionizing radiation and non-ionizing radiation.
X-Rays produce ionizing radiation which means that electrons can be stripped from atoms causing them to start chemical reactions.
So X-Rays can cause cell damage, undeniable fact.. Its a matter of how much damage and what are the effects.
Damage = Cancer/Tumour risk

Mobile Phones do not produce any ionizing radiation. There is no direct chemical effect... This is why many think it is safe.
No Chemical reactions are started by electrons being stripped from atoms with mobile phones.

There remains a question if the radiation may affect the cells in different ways, possibly stimulating or suppressing certain cellular level activities, that may have a long term effect. Many feel that there is no effect. If there is an effect its likely to be minor.

The chances of cancer or tumour risk from mobile phones if it exists is very low. If it were higher we would already have the answer.

Just keep in mind that the destruction mechanism in X-Ray radiation is not present in mobile phones
10x5x5mm AN
Sudden Partial hearing loss 5/28/10
Diagnosed 7/4/10
CK 7/27/10
2/21/11 Swelling 13x6x7mm
10/16/11 Hearing returned, balance improved. Feel totally back to normal most days
3/1/12 Sudden Hearing loss, steroids, hearing back.
9/16/13 Life is just like before my AN. ALL Good!

Crazycat

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2013, 12:14:08 am »
Good, informative post Paul. That should settle it once and for all! I love reading posts where I actually learn something!
5cm x 5cm left-side A.N. partially removed via Middle Fossa 9/21/2005 @ Mass General. 
Compounded by hydrocephalus. Shunt installed 8/10/2005.
Dr. Fred Barker - Neurosurgeon and Dr. Michael McKenna - Neurotologist.

annamaria

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2013, 07:56:05 am »
While it is known that ionizing radiation (rays at the x-ray level, such as for dental etc.) does cause issues, an accepted fact, the scientific community has known for a LONG TIME that microwave frequencies (specifically those at 300 MHz to 900 MHz, but also up to 6000 MHz) cause biological issues.  For example, people that work in a satellite transmission center are asked to wear on their bodies sensors that emit an alarm should there be stray RF emissions -- these would cause major problems. The problem relates to the well documented “window effect” which medical effects occur at certain frequencies and power densities but not at those immediately above or below them.

A simple-minded dismissals of issues, without proper research is not useful. Some basic on-line research should undertaken by some before arguing for a dismissal...

- - - -
The material below (from the Web -- http://www.goodhealthinfo.net/radiation/health_efx_western.htm) discusses the issues of RF frequencies at the cell telephone range (and even slightly below)
- - - -

We’re all participating in a giant experiment in involuntary epidemiology — irradiated by cell phones and towers, cordless phones, satellites, broadcast antennas, military and aviation radar, TVs, computers, wireless internet, wireless LANs in schools and the workplace, and now these meters, waiting to see what it does to us.

Actually, we know what it does to us, so the results shouldn’t come as any surprise.

The main problem isn’t cancer, although the industry would like you to believe that, because then they can pull out statistics showing how infrequently it occurs as a result of low-level radiation. Cancer takes a long time to develop. Typically, other problems show up first: neurological, reproductive, and cardiac. Problems with severe headaches, sleep disturbances, memory loss, learning disabilities, attention deficit disorder, and infertility show up long before cancer. When cancer does appear, it’s typically brain tumors, leukemia, and lymphoma.

Here are a few things to keep in mind about the health effects of microwave radiation:

1. Effects at low levels can be more noticeable than at higher levels.

The existence of a “window effect” is well documented, in which effects occur at certain frequencies and power densities but not at those immediately above or below them. However, it’s not as simple as just mapping these frequencies and power levels, because the local geomagnetic field and individual susceptibility also influence the result.

Following are a few examples of the nonlinear nature of the effects, from Arthur Firstenberg’s book Microwaving Our Planet (see bottom of page for information). In each case, emphasis has been added:

Firstenberg points out (p. 41) that “calcium ion efflux from brain tissue is extremely sensitive to irradiation with radiofrequency waves.” He cites four studies and a literature review. In particular, a 1986 study by Dutta et al. at 915 MHz and various exposure levels showed that “The effect at 0.0007 mW/g SAR [specific absorption rate] was quadruple the effect at 2.0 mW/g, in other words 3000 times the intensity had 4 times less of an effect under these particular conditions.” Looking at it the other way, an intensity three thousand times lower had an effect four times greater.

Firstenberg describes a number of studies on microwave radiation and blood cells. In one, “Chiang et al. (1989) in their epidemiological study found that white blood cell phagocytosis was stimulated by chronic exposure to the lowest intensities of radio waves and inhibited, sometimes severely, by higher intensities. ... Exposure levels ranged from 0–4 mW/cm2 to 120 mW/cm2.” (p. 22)

In another study on blood, “These results were further refined by a 30-day experiment with guinea pigs at 1, 5, 10, and 50 mW/cm2 (Shandala and Vinogradov 1978). All these intensities increased complement in the blood and stimulated phagocytosis by neutrophils, but 1 mW/cm2 had the biggest effect, and 50 mW/cm2 the smallest effect.” (p. 23)

The September 2000 newsletter of the Cellular Phone Taskforce, No Place To Hide, reported on some studies presented at the June 2000 European Parliament meeting on mobile phones and health. In one presentation, Dr. Lebrecht von Klitzing, of the Medical University of Lubeck, Germany, said, “Some people become ill at power densities of less than 10 nanowatts/cm2. ... Small children are very sensitive to these emitters, down to field densities of 1 nanowatt/cm2.”

Another article in the newsletter says that Dr. Leif Salford, of Lund University, Sweden, “had previously reported that short exposure to microwaves at 915 MHz damages the blood-brain barrier. ... ‘The most remarkable observation in our studies,’ said Salford [at the conference], ‘is the fact that SAR values lower than 1 mW/kg give rise to a more pronounced albumin leakage than higher SAR values. ... The situation that the weakest fields, according to our findings, are the biologically most effective, poses a major problem.’ ”

2. Another effect independent of power level is resonance, which occurs at certain frequency ranges where the wavelength is near the size of a body part. An example is the 900 Mhz range, which has a wavelength of approximately one foot — a size that can cause resonance in a child’s head (because some of the radiation is absorbed, and the wavelength decreases). This intensifies the biological effect. Also, children’s skulls are thinner, so microwaves penetrate more easily. (Another problem is that children’s cells are dividing rapidly, which creates more chance for DNA damage. Their immune systems are not fully developed and can’t defend them against this.)

3. Pulsed radiation, used for some microwave signals, is more harmful at the cellular level than continuous-wave.

4. Studies are typically done for short exposure periods at higher intensities, because running studies longer costs more money. This allows the industry to claim that few studies have been done that show effects for long-term, low-level exposure and that “nonthermal” effects do not exist. But public health scientists point out that duration is also important, and long-term, low-level exposure can have equivalent effects.

5. The effects of radiation are cumulative, in both senses. The meters add to the cumulative radiation as sources proliferate, and microwave radiation is cumulative in sense of increasing the body’s sensitivity over time. Research shows that test subjects don’t always recover completely and that subsequent exposures can cause effects at lower levels.

6. There are no longer any control groups, because we are now exposed to so much radiation. Alasdair Phillips points out the problem in an email to the Roy Beavers list (archived on the Library page at www.wave-guide.org),

Recently an American epidemiologist, Dr Sam Milham, re-analysed Doll’s own data presented in his 1956 (Doll & Hill) paper which showed that heavy smokers were 23.7 times more likely to die from lung cancer than non-smokers. However when you compare the figures for heavy smokers vs light and moderate ones the ORs [odds ratios] fall to 3.5 and 1.9. When you compare light smokers with moderate ones you get an OR of only 1.8.

 Applying this concept to microwaves, there are no unexposed and few highly exposed subjects. So experimental results showing harm compared to a control group can be deceptively low — like comparing lung cancer in heavy smokers to light or moderate smokers rather than nonsmokers. This allows the industry to downplay the implications of health effects.

7. Even in full studies, sometimes the abstract and/or conclusion may not accurately reflect the study’s data, especially if the industry was involved or the researcher is concerned about funding.

For example, Kathleen Thurmond, M.D., in a 1999 talk, said,

A study presented by Dr. Ross Adey at the 1996 annual meeting of the Bioelectromagnetics Society in Victoria, B.C., Canada, showed a decrease in the incidence of brain tumors in rats chronically exposed to digital cellular telephone fields. However, there was no mention in his study of the increased incidence of spinal column tumors found in his research according to a reliable source. It would be standard scientific practice to at least note this finding regarding spinal column tumors. Dr. Ross Adey’s research funding by Motorola has now been terminated.

Dr. Henry Lai was quoted in the London Times as saying, “They are asking me to change my whole interpretation of the findings in a way that would make them more favorable to the mobile phone industry. This is what happened in the tobacco industry. They had data in their hands but when it was not favorable they did not want to disclose it.”

The European Parliament report says, “[A] relatively recent reanalysis of the Lilienfeld report on the Moscow US Embassy irradiation during the ‘cold’ war, based on information that only became fully available following the Freedom of Information Act ... reveals that the original verdict of no serious health effects was, in fact, a sanitised version of Lilienfeld’s findings, in which his statements of concern had been deliberately removed by the State Department.”


terisandler

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2013, 10:20:56 am »
"A simple-minded dismissals of issues, without proper research is not useful. Some basic on-line research should undertaken by some before arguing for a dismissal..."

Why not just agree to disagree and play nice? 
3/25/13- dx 18x11x14 mm AN, hearing loss in right ear x 5+ years, 5 sessions of CK completed May 2013, now a "post toastie".  Follow up MRI 4/14/14 - 15x19x11 mm. Stable with some signs of necrosis.
 Yippee!

Pam Fraley

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2013, 12:05:15 pm »
Thank you, Teri.  I couldn't have said it better.
6mmx4mm a/n (left IAC)
8-9mm meningioma (right cavernous sinus)
Diagnosed 2/5/2013 MRI
Wait & Watch -  Dr. Arts, University of Michigan
MRI scheduled for 10/22/2013
No change, continue w&w, repeat MRI in 6months

Jim Scott

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2013, 12:36:40 pm »
Why not just agree to disagree and play nice?

We're trying - but if the thread becomes too argumentative it can and will be locked.

Let's all be cognizant of the fact that the AN discussion forums are intended to be a patient support resource, not a vehicle for interminable, contentious debating over multifaceted issues (i.e. cell phone risk for AN development) that generate rancor and are never going to be 'settled' here. 

Evidence has been presented and opinions stated quite clearly.  Let's move on.  Thank you. 

Jim
4.5 cm AN diagnosed 5/06.  Retrosigmoid surgery 6/06.  Follow-up FSR completed 10/06.  Tumor shrinkage & necrosis noted on last MRI.  Life is good. 

Life is not the way it's supposed to be. It's the way it is.  The way we cope with it is what makes the difference.

Crazycat

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2013, 01:35:24 pm »
Okay, then I state my opinion even more simply: I disagree.
5cm x 5cm left-side A.N. partially removed via Middle Fossa 9/21/2005 @ Mass General. 
Compounded by hydrocephalus. Shunt installed 8/10/2005.
Dr. Fred Barker - Neurosurgeon and Dr. Michael McKenna - Neurotologist.

Palace

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2013, 02:15:17 pm »
This isn't "the final answer" on cell phones and the use.

Those of us who have been on the forum for years know this issue has been debated numerous times.

I studied radiation in the dental field and I fully disagree the cell phone alone, could cause the Acoustic Neuroma.

We are all getting radiation on a daily basis just from the atmosphere as well.  (it's everywhere if you think about it)  It will come up from the earth and expose you.

Yes, I appreciate debates and learning. 

We all have a sense of humor on this forum.
22 mm Acoustic Neuroma (right side)
Cyberknife, Nov. & Dec. 2006
Dr. Iris Gibbs & Dr. Blevins @ Stanford
single sided deafness

PaulW

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Re: Final answer on cell phone use and acoustic neuroma??
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2013, 03:00:15 pm »
I have spent quite a bit of time trawling the research papers to see if there is conclusive evidence either way in this argument.

There are scientific papers supporting both sides of the argument.

A whole bunch of scientists of the World Health Organisation got together a couple of years ago to debate this exact topic.
They reviewed the research and medical literature, and spent a few days doing it. They eventually voted on a consensus statement, and their conclusion?

Well there really wasn't one.

What seems to be emerging is.
If mobile phones do cause tumours/cancers the risks are very low.

While we are not 100% sure of the safety of mobile phones, if you wish to reduce the risk you should.

1. Limit your use of your mobile phone
2. Use a wired headset
3. Use a Bluetooth headset as a lower radiation option.
4. Restrict there use to children who are more susceptible to radiation and have a longer lifetime risk.
 
Some things we should not do.
Buy a radiation shield for our mobile phone.
These have been proven to INCREASE radiation being emitted by the handset.
The phone will always use as much transmitting power as it needs to communicate with the tower.
If you put a shield around it, it increases the transmitting power and actually makes things worse.

I think the good news from all of this is that despite all of the studies, the evidence is far from conclusive.

What we do know, is that the risks of mobile phone usage if there is a risk at all are low.
We cannot definitively say that the they are safe , and we don't have enough evidence to prove that they are dangerous either.

The debate in my view will go on for many years to come. Largely because the risks if they exist are low, and therefor difficult to prove either way

If you are concerned limit your mobile phone use, and use a wired headset.
10x5x5mm AN
Sudden Partial hearing loss 5/28/10
Diagnosed 7/4/10
CK 7/27/10
2/21/11 Swelling 13x6x7mm
10/16/11 Hearing returned, balance improved. Feel totally back to normal most days
3/1/12 Sudden Hearing loss, steroids, hearing back.
9/16/13 Life is just like before my AN. ALL Good!