Author Topic: Cognitive problems  (Read 33765 times)

bjordanr

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #45 on: August 10, 2005, 05:37:54 am »
I was thinking last night about what seems to be a lot of people with post-operative cognitive problems and wondering if there is anything we all have in common...such as:

- size and location of tumor (mine was about 1cm on the right side)
- surgical approach (mine was Retrosigmoid/Sub-occipital)
- length of surgery (mine was about 5 hours)
- anything unusual during the surgery (I started to hemmorage)

Just wondering.

matti

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #46 on: August 10, 2005, 05:33:59 pm »
I had posted this same thought yesterday in another thread. My tumor was:

- left side
- 3.5cm
- Middle Fossa approach
- hearing nerve lost/facial nerve splayed
- 8 hours in surgery
- spent a long time trying to save the facial nerve

maybe there is a correlation somewhere???
3.5 cm  - left side  Single sided deafness 
Middle Fossa Approach - California Ear Institute at Stanford - July 1998
Dr. Joseph Roberson and Dr. Gary Steinberg
Life is great at 50

Pembo

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #47 on: August 11, 2005, 09:09:41 am »
Thank you all for this post. I figured my probs were surgery related. I sometimes I can't find the right word or words come out jumbled. I also could memorize numbers easily and now I forget simple ones, even my phone no sometimes. It isn't all the time but enough that I notice it.

I'm looking for a pt job and I'm worried that I'm not up to it.

For the record

Tumor was 4 cm, right side
Sub-occipital
20 hour surgery
Tumor was on 5 cranial nerves only hearing/vestib removed
Surgery June 3, 2004, University Hospitals Cleveland, BAHA received in 2005, Facial Therapy at UPMC 2006

gregpstone

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #48 on: August 15, 2005, 11:55:47 am »
I was thinking last night about what seems to be a lot of people with post-operative cognitive problems and wondering if there is anything we all have in common...such as:

- size and location of tumor (mine was about 1cm on the right side)
- surgical approach (mine was Retrosigmoid/Sub-occipital)
- length of surgery (mine was about 5 hours)
- anything unusual during the surgery (I started to hemmorage)

Just wondering.

The articles referred to show that balance diffciulty causes damage to the hippocampus. The hippocampus is associated with short-term memory and math ability. Surgery almost always causes more damage to the balance nerve and so there should be a high correlation between surgery patients and cognitive problems. As a "right brain" super rational CPA, these cognitive problems have gutted my cognitive strengths that have enabled me to have a successful career and make a lot of money. On the other hand, I can't say that the damage and cognitive problems are intrinsically bad. As an amateur musician, I think I have benefitted and my creative thinking in general is enhanced.

My theory is that the difference in reported cognitive difficulties has more to do with your pre-balance problem style of thinking. If you were never good at math, you wouldn't notice the huge drop in ability that those of us who excelled at math do. In general terms, those who think like accountants have a huge change, those who think like artists experience a much smaller change.

Greg

russ

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #49 on: August 15, 2005, 02:25:39 pm »
Hi Greg!
  Good post and thanks. I'd like to know more about the hippocampus and left/right brain abilities in relationship to vestibular challenge. If you know of any good links, will you send them my way at russvk@earthlink.net, or, post them here?
  Have a nice day/eve!
  Russ

matti

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #50 on: August 15, 2005, 03:03:45 pm »
Hi Greg,

I would also be grateful if you would post some links here.

Thanks,
matti
3.5 cm  - left side  Single sided deafness 
Middle Fossa Approach - California Ear Institute at Stanford - July 1998
Dr. Joseph Roberson and Dr. Gary Steinberg
Life is great at 50

gregpstone

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #51 on: August 17, 2005, 10:47:43 am »
Russ & matti,

The links I posted on pages one and three of this thread are the best articles I have found. Here's an interesting one http://www.scuba-doc.com/LTE.htm  on the cognitive problems of long-term scuba divers which is directly related to our situation. In the last few weeks I've been concentrating on the space program. Here's my e-mail to Dr. Chuck Oman at MIT ( http://www.nsbri.org/Research/Neuro.html )and his reply. They are generally now focussed on spatial thinking problems but the American astronaut now on the space station is doing more broadly based cognitive testing using a program that I will red flag with with a new thread when it is available.

Dr. Oman,
 
I wanted to call your attention to recent research linking compensated balance disorders resulting from vestibular damage to cognitive dysfunction and atrophy of the hippocampus. A summary of the research is here, http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:VdgsHxqeJaMJ:www.jvr-web.org/Volume_15/Number_1/Feature_15-1.pdf+%22does+vestibular+damage+cause+cognitive%22&hl=en 
 
The cognitive disorders that are often experienced by people with vestibular nerve damage, such as myself, are similar to some of the symptoms of "Chronic space motion": fatigue, space stupids, decreased vigilance and loss of motivation. Long-time scuba divers commonly have cognitive problems identical to many vestibular nerve damage patients. In the case of scuba divers it is thought that they experience direct vestibular nerve damage from underwater pressure, but this may be an unproven assumption. In the case of astronauts the possibility exists that even without direct vestibular nerve damage, the incoherent balance data could cause physical damage to the hippocampus. I have seen no evidence indicating how long after the vestibular nerve is affected resulting damage to the hippocampus occurs. Is there evidence of changes to cognitive function before and long after prolonged weightlessness? In vestibular patients that have cognitive problems, the problems persist even after balance is well compensated and episodes of vertigo are no longer experienced.
 
Whether the incidence of cognitive dysfunction concurrent with weightlessness is temporary, or past a certain point is permanent, I would appreciate hearing about any strategies for ameliorating the symptoms so that I can try them, if practicable, to see if they might benefit my struggles with the "Earth stupids". Stephen Kosslyn and Jennifer Shepard at Harvard plan on having a web based version of the MiniCog software they are using available in two weeks and I plan on using it to gauge the effectiveness of any therapies that I try.
 
Thank you for your kind attention to this e-mail.
 
 Greg Stone, CPA



Greg -
Many thanks for your thoughtful and insightful note.
I had seen the Smith et al review... The question of how vestibular signals drive hippocampal centers, particularly the direction and place cells that mediate our sense of direction and where we are, is the subject of much current research.  Attached is a recent paper by Taube et al which has a review of the relevant background literature you might want to skim.  It discusses what happens to head direction cells in weightlessness.

One important thing to keep in mind is that (at least based on what we know so far) astronauts don't experience pathological changes in their vestibular end organs or peripheral nerves the way vestibular patients such as yourself do.  The vestibular organ nerve pattern going to the brain changes, but doesn't cease.  It's true that some morphologic changes have been seen in rat cerebellum and other structures (e.g. Holstein, 1998 Neurolab experiments), but in all probability these just reflect normal adaptive response to the change in the information pattern, and are probably not "pathologic" in the sense that they are not reversible.  As our experiments with rats in parabolic flight (Taube et al) imply, hippocampal directional sense changes in 0-G, but we believe this is just because our CNS navigation centers are primarily adapted to 2D terrestrial navigation on a locomotion surface, and so our direction sense is optimized for 2D.  As a result astronauts living in 3D environments naturally find themselves suceptible to Visual Reorientation Illusions, a cousin to the "direction vertigo" in azimuth that we sometimes experience on Earth (e.g. in the subway).  We don't fully understand what happens to hippocampal function in 0-G - there has been only one experiment, and the way things are going in the space program it may be many years till it is done again.  But the Knieriem et al Neurolab study on place cell responses in Neurolab rats suggests that animals initially experience something akin to visual reorientation illusions in humans but are capable of developing a veridical 3D sense of place.

In your situation, if you are looking out for CNS/limbic changes as a result of your vestibular infarct, you'd want to look for subtle but Alzheimer's like changes in your sense of direction, and ability to automatically "dead reckon" when you walk around inside buildings.  Do you think you can point back in the direction of the unseen front door of the building as well as you could earlier in life ?  Tests of ability to mentally rotate objects in 2D or 3D may show correlated changes - one of these is in Steve K's battery as I recall.  Researchers are beginning to recognize though that mental rotation and directional abilities - though related - are not quite the same. Some navigation researchers, such as Mary Hegarty at UCSB and Maria Kozhevnikov at Rutgers are working on tests of "perspective taking ability" that may tap more directly into the spatial navigation system. 

A relationship between vestibular loss and incidence of anxiety and depression has been noted clinically.  There are several recent reviews of what is known.  Search for articles by Joe Furman of Pittsburgh, who is one of the clinical experts in this area.

Hope this is of some help.

Chuck Oman


Windsong

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #52 on: August 17, 2005, 01:46:40 pm »
Interesting thread...

greg, I was tested some years ago for right brain and left brain thinking.... i scored equally on both.... so I figure that's why my cognitive probs since vestibular injury and now with an AN mean I notice a big time drop in cognitive function mathematically, spatially (artistically, verbally and for want of a better phrase, "seeing the whole picture " lol... but that last one is still better than the first two separately....

Be well.

mlwitte

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2006, 12:43:29 am »
Hi I have read this long thread. Had my surgery last July 2005. Complications with spinal fluid leak. I was back at work in 6 weeks and driving in 8 weeks.

I lost hearing in the left ear as a result of the surgery. I have also notice that I am pretty much useless after 2 PM. It can take me 3 hours to write one letter when I used to be able to construct one in 20 minutes. Focus is touch. Delay responses, forgetting names.
I have found that it's best for me to write something that could be complicated and sleep on it before sending it out...

I am in consultive sales. It has brought new meaning to challenging.   ;)

I would ask for any insights or solutions that other haved tried. I read where a another member is using "Gingko" sucessfully.

On the plus side, I have been able to make better decisions when I can focus on actions to move or resolve issues. In most cases, strategic planning is much clearer and more profound in my discussions with peirs and customers.

So - the glass is either half full or half empty and I am trying to fill it up. Your help is much appreciated.
Marcus  :-)
We all fall down. God helps us get back up.
Life is a process consider all your options and live each day.
Like Winston Churchill, "Never ever surrender"
AN 7mm disagnosed 3/16/05 left ear, Surgery - Stanford 7/13 - Dr Jackler and Dr Harsh - total hearing loss in left ear

Battyp

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2006, 10:43:18 am »
ML You amaze me!  I couldn't have gone back to work at 6 weeks if my life depended on it.  I know it had to be hard! 

This had been an interesting thread...we need to keep it to the forefront for the newbies just expieriencing all this so they know they are not alone!  I've been telling my mom I feel stupid due to being able to remember things and words getting jumbled.  I know what my exceptioanl education students feel like!

Captain Deb

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2006, 11:17:58 am »
Wow, this is an interesting thread!
I've experinces cognitive problems as well- my math skills were never super, but now they are non-existent.  I was tested by a shrink during a disability exam and she asked me a few simple math questions and I totally blanked.
I make my living as an artist, and my paintings are better than ever!  I've sold more of my post-surgery art than ever. I've been taking old paintings from pre-surg and reworking them and putting them back in the gallery and they have been really moving.  It takes me a lot longer to paint a picture now--I guess taking more time with them has improved the quality or something.  Hmmmm......

Captain Deb
"You only have two choices, having fun or freaking out"-Jimmy Buffett
50-ish with a 1x.7x.8cm.AN
Mid-fossa HEI, Jan 03 Friedman & Hitselberger
Chronic post-op headaches
Captain & Designated Driver of the PBW

Battyp

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2006, 11:19:42 am »
Capt Deb did it ever occur to you that it's taking you longer to paint one cause you're posting while you paint?   :-* :-* :-*

Funny thing is I'm sure I read this thread months ago but don't remember it  :o(

Jeff

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2006, 12:29:21 pm »
Hello,
I have had 2 surgeries on my right side AN and will at some time have surgery on my left (I have NF2). Since my surgeries, I frequently walk in to a room to get or do something, and can't remember what it was by the time I get there. I don't know whether the surgeries are to blame or not. One thing that I think has been very good for me has been going to graduate school. I taught middle school band for 16 years, but with my NF2 diagnosis came recommendations for learning a new profession (not much of a market for deaf band directors). So, I have studied library science for the past 3 years; and plan to graduate in August of this year. Learning a new set of vocabulary and so much new information has really helped to sharpen my mind. Don't get me wrong, it has been very difficult at times, but it really has helped. Just my thoughts.
Jeff
NF2
multiple AN surgeries
last surgery June 08

Battyp

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2006, 12:46:32 pm »
Jeff what do you do with a library of science degree? Librarian? 

matti

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Re: Cognitive problems
« Reply #59 on: March 31, 2006, 01:27:08 pm »
I didn't remember I posted on this thread. Quite frequently I come across a thread, scroll down and see I have already posted...I surprise myself.

I have also found that I am horrible with numbers now. When I am typing or talking I find that I always mix up my words, if I can find them..

BTW Capt. Deb - Your paintings are awesome. I envy your talents
3.5 cm  - left side  Single sided deafness 
Middle Fossa Approach - California Ear Institute at Stanford - July 1998
Dr. Joseph Roberson and Dr. Gary Steinberg
Life is great at 50